The ideas and perceptions about the presence of dead persons too vary

 

Many ideas and opinions in Hinduism are apparently contradicting one another.

The ideas and perceptions about the presence   of dead persons too vary in so many ways.

In some Vedic mantras and Upanishads it is said that some people who have done great deeds like Somayaga, Agnishtoma etc., reach some world akin to Satyaloka through Devayana.

Some others reach Pitruloka through different paths,

Some menton the world of Aryama as the rallying point for Pitrus.

I did not say Pitrus or Pretas become Devas. Someone was vehemently arguing that Piturs are not Devas.. let them be Devas or not .. That is not a subject of discussion here at all.. I just said the Pitrus too attain some status different from man on earth who alone can burn out Karmas or do Karmas.

What I said was that the dead person lived or existed in some other world according to the wealth of Karmas he performed on earth as man or woman.

This is the belief in general prevalent in Hinduism .

So there is no question of resting in peace after death.

Living in Peace or otherwise is restricted to the period when we are living on earth. There is no peace or turmoil in the world in which the departed soul lodges itself.

Secondly the earning and expiating the Karma is by the respective individual and prayer by others can do nothing to help in reducing karmas.

Even when a peson is alive on earth if a he is to receive the results of a prayer by others he should take over the phalam or the essentce of the result, by offering adequate compensation by wayvof Dakshina etc. No dead person can give any such Dakshina.

You said your forefathers have told you that you are connected with three generations of Pitrus alone.

Which forefather or which text did tell you like that. ?

The Pitrus of all generations are there. .Sapinda Pitrus sapinda pitrus lepa pitrus and so on.

The count generations can be infinite.By practice we invoke three generations. That is all.

It cannot be assumed that we are connected with three generations of pitrus alone, just because we mention them alone in Sharddhams or Tarpanams,,

You are presenting ideas which are not there.

And the ideas of Pitrus and Sraddham and rebirth etc are part of Karmakanda and Mimasa or Poorvameemamsa school.

The Moksham, the supreme soul etc., are more of vedantic or Uttarameemasa concepts.

The bhakthi school also would roughly correspond with certain ideas in Vedantam at least on Karma and Moksha.

But Karmakandam and bhakthi have many contradictions with each other.

You can accept the two with such contradictions.

Trying to create explanation to unite them on inadequate understanding is dangerous.

We can adopt Bhakti also along with Karma and try to live with both of them .

But mixing them up can be hazardous and it is unnecessary too.

My post was simply to point out that the dead person reaches a different status where peace or lack of it as understood on earth is not felt by that being.

Therefore the prayer for peace of that dead person is not necessary and it is useless too.

A dead person lying in a coffin waiting for trial and redemption or whatnot is not a Hindu idea. That idea belongs to some other faith. I am not commenting on the merits..

It is valid for those who follow that faith..

I respect that idea when they follow it.

If people are mixing up religions and importing to Hinduism ideas from some other religion that is their problem..and not mine.

And infusing ideas into Hinduism when such ideas are completely against the basic tenets of Hinduism can only confuse or even poison Hinduism.

I have to point out another fact. Rightly or wrongly people just coceive ideas about hazy matters ..ideas which are incorrect or misinterpreted. No one can clarify such ideas.

There is an element of myth and fiction too in the religion. The mythological descriptions often contradict. A wise person normally ignores contradictions in myths and accepts the essence.

After the study of Vedic practices, and related lore too, I tend to feel that Hinduism restricts prayers for the living beings alone.

And in most cases, as a pretha, pitru or some spirit, the dead person reachers a state where he or she is a sort of deva or some such being, to whom we pray..

Even in shraaddham or aparakriya mantrams,

we are usually praying to the respective spirits

and the accompanying vishve devas and the protector of shraddha the Vishnu ..

This being the case, I doubt whether anyone can pray for the dead..

If moksha is to be attained by the dead, that moksha is reached when the life leaves the human body..

and through theory of Karma,

it can be inferred that if the emancipation is not reached by the time of death,

the soul or jeeva has to assume another body,

wear out the Karma and once again attempt to attain moksha..

And so the prayer if any for Moksha seems to be possible only before death.. and preferably by the person who is inheriting the Karma..

Of course Hindu ethos are a hotchpotch and some swamiji or periyavaa may hold a different view too.

But this is what I could understand after all these years of study

Kula acharam

Primarily our spirituality is based on shruti or vedas.. and the smritis and soothras based on that.

Kula acharam evolves based on these.

If some acharam which are not according to shruti and smrithi and sootras creep in they should be stopped immediately when such aberrations are noticed.

Such aberrations can easily happen nowadays because many of us and our parents too are not sure about the rules.

And a vadhyar or a guru of a region different from ours originally may not understand our exact background.

Those who re settle in metroplis or north or foreign countries face such issues.

And sadly there is a tendency to flout acharams and introduce new practices contrary to shrutis and smrithis even in ancient agraharams like ours.

That is suicidal

there is no dividing line between religious and temporal lives in India

 

Religion in the non-Indian parlance (non-oriental perhaps) is a bundle of tenets, prescriptions regarding rituals, revelations and directions of one or many prophets all with a presupposition that the votaries follow the tenets mainly with reference to their icons, idols and seers. The lifestyle adopted by them when not in the ambit or jurisdiction of church can be completely at variance with the requirements of the church or the organised religion.

However, there is no organised religion termed as Hinduism. It is a bundle of recordings of various precedence and practices, which pertain to lifestyle and to the relationship with God or what we call spirituality. Besides, there is no such dividing line. The same gita can be applied to lifestyle and religion- so also Vedas and Upanishads.. Moreover, Hinduism has no prophets, and philosophies professing atheism and agnosticism like Samkhya and Charvaka are part of the present Hinduism. The constitution of India has relied on Yajnavalkya smriti that we can treat with equal with equal acceptance as a religious text, but India is a secular state. No one can make this claim in respect of Bible or other religious texts found elsewhere.

Hinduism encompasses tribal religion to the most scholastic Vedic practices, and the practitioners of all faiths find freedom to exist in harmony even within the definitions of predominantly religious (by western standards) texts.

In India, there is nothing called religion. The texts are just pronouncements helping the lifestyle of people and worship of the almighty too forms part of human existence canvassed in those texts.

It is purely my view. I am not a prophet or one interested proselytizing. However, usually I think to the best of my capacity before taking my stands.

𝐄𝐱𝐜𝐞𝐩𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧𝐬 𝐚𝐫𝐞 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐏𝐫𝐢𝐞𝐬𝐭, 𝐒𝐚𝐧𝐧𝐲𝐚𝐬𝐢𝐧𝐬, 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐩𝐞𝐫𝐬𝐨𝐧𝐬 𝐰𝐡𝐨 𝐡𝐚𝐯𝐞 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐭𝐮𝐬 𝐨𝐟 𝐦𝐨𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫.

𝐌𝐚𝐧𝐲 𝐲𝐨𝐮𝐧𝐠 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐨𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫𝐰𝐢𝐬𝐞 𝐧𝐢𝐜𝐞 𝐩𝐞𝐫𝐬𝐨𝐧𝐬 𝐟𝐚𝐢𝐥 𝐭𝐨 𝐮𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐫𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐬𝐨𝐦𝐞 𝐬𝐨𝐜𝐢𝐚𝐥 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐫𝐞𝐥𝐢𝐠𝐢𝐨𝐮𝐬 𝐧𝐮𝐚𝐧𝐜𝐞𝐬 𝐚𝐛𝐨𝐮𝐭 𝐬𝐞𝐧𝐝𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐛𝐥𝐞𝐬𝐬𝐢𝐧𝐠𝐬 𝐨𝐫 𝐛𝐥𝐞𝐬𝐬𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐬𝐨𝐦𝐞 𝐨𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫 𝐩𝐞𝐫𝐬𝐨𝐧..

𝐈𝐟 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐩𝐞𝐫𝐬𝐨𝐧 𝐰𝐡𝐨 𝐢𝐬 𝐛𝐞𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐛𝐥𝐞𝐬𝐬𝐞𝐝 𝐢𝐬 𝐨𝐥𝐝𝐞𝐫 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐧 𝐲𝐨𝐮, 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐚𝐫𝐞 𝐢𝐧𝐜𝐮𝐫𝐫𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐬𝐢𝐧.. 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐬𝐮𝐜𝐡 𝐛𝐥𝐞𝐬𝐬𝐢𝐧𝐠𝐬 𝐰𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐛𝐞 𝐨𝐟 𝐧𝐨 𝐮𝐬𝐞..

𝐈𝐟 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐚𝐫𝐞 𝐨𝐟𝐟𝐞𝐫𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐧 𝐆𝐨𝐝𝐬 𝐛𝐥𝐞𝐬𝐬𝐢𝐧𝐠𝐬 𝐭𝐨 𝐬𝐨𝐦𝐞𝐨𝐧𝐞 𝐨𝐥𝐝𝐞𝐫, 𝐨𝐟𝐟𝐞𝐫 𝐡𝐢𝐦 𝐏𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐚𝐦𝐬 𝐨𝐫 𝐧𝐚𝐦𝐚𝐬𝐤𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐦𝐬, 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐧 𝐢𝐧𝐯𝐨𝐤𝐞 𝐆𝐨𝐝𝐬 𝐛𝐥𝐞𝐬𝐬𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐨𝐧 𝐡𝐢𝐦.

𝐈𝐟 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐝𝐨 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐤𝐧𝐨𝐰 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐚𝐠𝐞, 𝐨𝐟𝐟𝐞𝐫 𝐩𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐚𝐦𝐬 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐧 𝐨𝐟𝐟𝐞𝐫 𝐃𝐢𝐯𝐢𝐧𝐞 𝐛𝐥𝐞𝐬𝐬𝐢𝐧𝐠𝐬 𝐭𝐨𝐨.. 𝐍𝐨𝐭 𝐨𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫𝐰𝐢𝐬𝐞..

𝐄𝐱𝐜𝐞𝐩𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧𝐬 𝐚𝐫𝐞 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐏𝐫𝐢𝐞𝐬𝐭, 𝐒𝐚𝐧𝐧𝐲𝐚𝐬𝐢𝐧𝐬, 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐩𝐞𝐫𝐬𝐨𝐧𝐬 𝐰𝐡𝐨 𝐡𝐚𝐯𝐞 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐭𝐮𝐬 𝐨𝐟 𝐦𝐨𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫..

𝐓𝐡𝐞𝐲 𝐜𝐚𝐧 𝐛𝐥𝐞𝐬𝐬 𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐧 𝐨𝐥𝐝𝐞𝐫 𝐩𝐞𝐫𝐬𝐨𝐧𝐬 𝐨𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐢𝐫 𝐨𝐰𝐧 𝐫𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭𝐬..𝐖𝐡𝐞𝐧 𝐰𝐞 𝐨𝐟𝐟𝐞𝐫 𝐩𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐚𝐦𝐬 𝐭𝐨 𝐒𝐚𝐧𝐧𝐲𝐚𝐬𝐢𝐬 𝐰𝐞 𝐬𝐡𝐨𝐮𝐥𝐝 𝐨𝐟𝐟𝐞𝐫 𝐢𝐭 𝐭𝐡𝐫𝐢𝐜𝐞, 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐨𝐧𝐜𝐞...

𝐄𝐯𝐞𝐧 𝐢𝐟 𝐰𝐞 𝐚𝐫𝐞 𝐢𝐧 𝐚 𝐭𝐞𝐦𝐩𝐥𝐞 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐚 𝐒𝐚𝐧𝐧𝐲𝐚𝐬𝐢 𝐢𝐬 𝐩𝐫𝐞𝐬𝐞𝐧𝐭, 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐟𝐢𝐫𝐬𝐭 𝐩𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐚𝐦𝐬 𝐬𝐡𝐨𝐮𝐥𝐝 𝐠𝐨 𝐭𝐨 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐒𝐚𝐧𝐧𝐲𝐚𝐚𝐬𝐢..

there are provisions in Shastras to give proper respect to relatives on the mother"s side

In a stiffly Patrilineal setup ( male succession oriented) of Hindu practices, it is heartening to see that there are provisions in Shastras to give proper respect to relatives on the mother"s side..

Apart from the pitru karyams like tharpanam to be done for maternal grandparents, dharmasastras also provide for aassauchams or theettu for siblings of mother, their spouses, and cousins.. even when they are from different gothrams..

In fact shastras say that maternal uncles and paternal aunts and maternal aunts and their spouse all should be given great respect only next only to father and mother..

And it is specially provided that even if those persons are not showing any cordiality, or even if they are indifferent to our welfare, still utmost respect should be shown to them and their families, and no disrespectful or disparaging remarks should ever be made against them ..

Even in the matter of prohibition of partaking in food in other houses on certain days and occasions, the houses of Athai , Chithi, periyammai, and Mama( siblings of parents) and first cousins, are exempted..

There is no bar in taking food from their houses at any time, as if it were our own house and hearth.

Of course father's brother , own brother paternal cousins etc are of the same family and such a situation will not arise because there is no difference between theirs and our own

This exemptions is allowed for father in laws house too..

We can even partake pithrusesham (the food left after offering in respectful memory of departed soul) of own sister and her sons, athai (fathers sister), athaan( athiais son) , mama( maternal uncle), mami, mamas son, chithi or periyammai( mothers sisters), their sons etc. and the parents in law too...

So blood relations actually assume a lot of importance.. Sometimes, sadly we maintain enmity with uncles aunts, and their children.. and it is not proper at all..

The foible and failure of a Hindu

The foible and failure of a Hindu is obvious.. Whereas the followers of other faiths and religions would forget even major schisms inter se and gel together to defend their faiths even on the face of a minor challenge, the Hindus just practice so many varied things and never hesitate to fight for their own restricted and narrow and sectarian dogmas which do not affect the wide canvas of Hinduism even a little. They fight for their sectarian ideas, be it belief in a particular deity, caste, region, language, or any other variation, and they fight destructively.. If Hindus as a class cannot eschew this sectarianism, the faith cannot ever bring uniformity and welfare for the followers as a whole.

Legislation should succeed social consent. Not the other way.

Bali, Naivedyam

Bali, naivedyam etc are different names for offering food items, according to the status of the deity..the main deities are offered the things in the name of naivedyam and some functional gods are offered the same in the name of bali... ...

just because one calls it bali it need not be flesh, blood etc, and in some saaktha systems flesh blood etc are offered in the name of naivedyam also.

In both Vaikhansa and Siva agama brahmotsavas, morsels of rice are offered to the eight masters of directions, (Ashtadik Palakas) indra, agni, yama nirruti, varuna vayu kubera isana as bali..

the bali is meant as food not only for the palakaas but their parshadas also.

Just like we offer havyam rice to agni, kavyam rice to pitrus... various terms are used..

it is all on account of functionality, and based on some protocol defined in the sastras or agamas.

However, the Vaama (Shaktha, Tantric ) type of worship are generally not meant for either Iyengars or Iyers.