The ideas and perceptions about the presence of dead persons too vary

 

Many ideas and opinions in Hinduism are apparently contradicting one another.

The ideas and perceptions about the presence   of dead persons too vary in so many ways.

In some Vedic mantras and Upanishads it is said that some people who have done great deeds like Somayaga, Agnishtoma etc., reach some world akin to Satyaloka through Devayana.

Some others reach Pitruloka through different paths,

Some menton the world of Aryama as the rallying point for Pitrus.

I did not say Pitrus or Pretas become Devas. Someone was vehemently arguing that Piturs are not Devas.. let them be Devas or not .. That is not a subject of discussion here at all.. I just said the Pitrus too attain some status different from man on earth who alone can burn out Karmas or do Karmas.

What I said was that the dead person lived or existed in some other world according to the wealth of Karmas he performed on earth as man or woman.

This is the belief in general prevalent in Hinduism .

So there is no question of resting in peace after death.

Living in Peace or otherwise is restricted to the period when we are living on earth. There is no peace or turmoil in the world in which the departed soul lodges itself.

Secondly the earning and expiating the Karma is by the respective individual and prayer by others can do nothing to help in reducing karmas.

Even when a peson is alive on earth if a he is to receive the results of a prayer by others he should take over the phalam or the essentce of the result, by offering adequate compensation by wayvof Dakshina etc. No dead person can give any such Dakshina.

You said your forefathers have told you that you are connected with three generations of Pitrus alone.

Which forefather or which text did tell you like that. ?

The Pitrus of all generations are there. .Sapinda Pitrus sapinda pitrus lepa pitrus and so on.

The count generations can be infinite.By practice we invoke three generations. That is all.

It cannot be assumed that we are connected with three generations of pitrus alone, just because we mention them alone in Sharddhams or Tarpanams,,

You are presenting ideas which are not there.

And the ideas of Pitrus and Sraddham and rebirth etc are part of Karmakanda and Mimasa or Poorvameemamsa school.

The Moksham, the supreme soul etc., are more of vedantic or Uttarameemasa concepts.

The bhakthi school also would roughly correspond with certain ideas in Vedantam at least on Karma and Moksha.

But Karmakandam and bhakthi have many contradictions with each other.

You can accept the two with such contradictions.

Trying to create explanation to unite them on inadequate understanding is dangerous.

We can adopt Bhakti also along with Karma and try to live with both of them .

But mixing them up can be hazardous and it is unnecessary too.

My post was simply to point out that the dead person reaches a different status where peace or lack of it as understood on earth is not felt by that being.

Therefore the prayer for peace of that dead person is not necessary and it is useless too.

A dead person lying in a coffin waiting for trial and redemption or whatnot is not a Hindu idea. That idea belongs to some other faith. I am not commenting on the merits..

It is valid for those who follow that faith..

I respect that idea when they follow it.

If people are mixing up religions and importing to Hinduism ideas from some other religion that is their problem..and not mine.

And infusing ideas into Hinduism when such ideas are completely against the basic tenets of Hinduism can only confuse or even poison Hinduism.

I have to point out another fact. Rightly or wrongly people just coceive ideas about hazy matters ..ideas which are incorrect or misinterpreted. No one can clarify such ideas.

There is an element of myth and fiction too in the religion. The mythological descriptions often contradict. A wise person normally ignores contradictions in myths and accepts the essence.

After the study of Vedic practices, and related lore too, I tend to feel that Hinduism restricts prayers for the living beings alone.

And in most cases, as a pretha, pitru or some spirit, the dead person reachers a state where he or she is a sort of deva or some such being, to whom we pray..

Even in shraaddham or aparakriya mantrams,

we are usually praying to the respective spirits

and the accompanying vishve devas and the protector of shraddha the Vishnu ..

This being the case, I doubt whether anyone can pray for the dead..

If moksha is to be attained by the dead, that moksha is reached when the life leaves the human body..

and through theory of Karma,

it can be inferred that if the emancipation is not reached by the time of death,

the soul or jeeva has to assume another body,

wear out the Karma and once again attempt to attain moksha..

And so the prayer if any for Moksha seems to be possible only before death.. and preferably by the person who is inheriting the Karma..

Of course Hindu ethos are a hotchpotch and some swamiji or periyavaa may hold a different view too.

But this is what I could understand after all these years of study

Do not meddle with one’s own intense faiths and beliefs

 

If you appreciate the background for this discussion you will understand what I said.

I am not insisting that Jathakams should be compared or marriages stopped on that basis..

I am basically not against even different sects of brahmins joining together in marriage.. And for that matter I do not consider even inte-racial or inter-caste marriages as wrong.

My remark was made in a discussion where they were saying that Rama and Sita or Vishnu and Lakshmi or Uma and Shankara or Ganga and Shiva did not compare horoscopes and married.. So we should not.. They were just ridiculing the idea of astrology totally.

If the parents and those who are close agree that there is no need to compare horoscope, there is no issue.

Horoscope comparison does not arise from our Vedic of smartha traditions.. 

That I have made very clear.

But if the persons closely connected and whose lives are at stake feel that there should be such match... others have no right to ridicule such idea. That is all

Ultimately in marriages, if there is some haggling over horoscope match and marriage happens in spite of that, and something unwanted happens, the parties who believed in horoscope would snatch this opportunity of harass the hapless victims.. Especially the parents or siblings on both sides can be the culprits.. And life can become a prolonged misery..

I just said. Do not meddle with one’s own intense faiths and beliefs..

That is not any invitation to become superstitious.

And just because the vedic jyothisham has nothing to do with marriage match we cannot say that the treatises by later authors and sages (many of them are revered like gods themselves) regarding marriage match are all not valid. There are solid texts especially in the Kerala Jyothisha tradition which prescribe the marriage criteria.. That may not be found in the Vedic period

But then even many prayers and stotram like Vishnu Sahasranama or Lalitha Sahasranamam are not parts of Vedas.. Vishnu sahasranama is at least a part of itihasa.. but lalitha sahasranamam and many other prayers and stotras are part of not so important puranams.. That does not belittle the importance of such stotrams.. Agamas are not parts of Vedas.. Tantras too are not part of Vedas.. Our pooja rituals and many other activities are governed not only by Vedas but many other derivative texts.. At best the only condition would be that the ideas contained in the later rituals should not be opposed to the ideas of Vedas. It was simply that such practices were not there in Vedic times. They came into vogue just four or five centuries ago..

Hinduism and Brahminism are wide-spectrum treatises.. There can be diametrically opposite views at the far ends of the spectrum. And no one can say for sure what the right way is. Or right path..

The best way for the Individual is to follow the path which appears for him safe.. If he has solid company in that path, he is safer.

 

We have even ceased to recognize that such Guruparampara is still there to guide us

 

Namasmaranam is not prescribed by Shruti or Smritis.. the maxim “Kalau Sankeetya Keshavam” is not derived from any Dharmasastra. I just want to underline one point. If we are not able to perform, it is a weak point for us. We can choose to denounce smritis. Or just perform rituals as much as possible and just leave it at without making any justifications. Some are even forced to leave their old parents at Old age homes, some are forced to keep the dead body of dear ones in morgue even a month. That is all helplessness. For helplessness, no justification or explanation is necessary. However, Namasmaranam will not substitute for Sandyavandanam, Pooja, or Sraddham. The helplessness is not a fault, but trying to find justification in treading a path not prescribed as an alternative will just not do.

If a Brahmin is saying that he is not going to perform Sandhya or Sraddham, no one is blaming him anyway. He is a brahma bandhu rather than a Brahmin.. That is all.

Amendments have been made to rituals by great people like Vaidyanatha Deekshita, with the consent of Gurus of the status or pontiffs of Kanchi and Sringeri. In fact the age-old Sraddham and Aparakriya procedures were impossible to follow.The Sapindeekaranam was to be conducted only on the first annual anniversary. And if the Kartha dies by that time, the departed soul had no way of reaching pitru hood. For Tamil Brahmins this provision was amended by our gurus. I think some other Brahmins actually face the problem even now. By consensus, even now our great gurus are there, great scholars and Vedic pandithas are there. Vidvat Sadas Can be convened and amendments can be effected.. without change to the basic principles contained in the shastras.. In fact the Supreme Court Decision in the case of Meenaakshi Temple Priests is such an attempt.. The Honourable Bench did it- the issue must have been decided by the Gurus for the Shivacharya, the Kanchi and Sringeri Mutt, and various Aadheenams in that State... This I state with utmost respect for the Apex Court. I am no one to challenge the Wisdom of the Hon’ble Court..

Of course our problems is that, instead of using the August offices of our Gurus for advice and guidance in the proper running of our religious and social lives, we just pay lip service to them.. We have even ceased to recognize that such Guruparampara is still there to guide us.

bhagavat gita and gita govindan

GITA GOVINDAM THE IMMORTAL SRINGARA KAVYAM OF INDIA

A learned friend raised a query about Gita Govindam.. in one group.. The query was partly addressed to me..

The query is

I have heard some elders say that the Gita Govindam should be merely sung and the meanings should not be elaborated upon due to the Sringara Bhava that it contains. Instead the Bhagavad Gita must be elaborated for explanation.

can throw light on this?

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My response is this

Maybe it is a belief of those who show very great inclination towards bhakti line that Geethagovindam is somewhat sensuous...

But for the Scholars of Sanskrit, the unique style,

use of aesthetically selected words to melody..

the shabdaalankaaram,

the musical nuances ( in fact the raaga for each ashtapadi is prescribed at the time the Kavyam was composed...now musicians do not use those ragas, that is another thing),

all these factors have made this Kavyam uniquely sublime in Sanskrit literature..

There are many scholarly vyakhyas or commentaries on this epic work running to thousands of pages, in Sanskrit and Vernacular

It is the

The greatest Dhvani Kavya.. or Lyric.. in Sanskrit and arguably in whole world literature of mankind ..

and at the same time it containsmany nuances highlighting Sringara Rasam in various facets..

and at the same time it depicts the beauty of the nature and landscape, flora, fauna

and it deals with the delectable relation between man and woman.. in the physical plane as well as in the Divine level..

This kavyam has inspired many poets both in the field of physical love and that love blossoming into spiritual strata too.

As a lover of the great literature of Sanskrit, I cannot agree to the view that Gitagovindam or Ashtapadi should not be analysed for meaning..

because, without knowing the meaning we cannot capture the aesthetic beauty of the work.. the best of its kind ..

Gitagovindam is also a pastoral lyric.. and it has inspired pastoral poetry even in the West..

Of course there are some parts in the epical creation where an open translation might not be to the comfort of people who can see Radha and Madhava only as Godheads and could not come to terms with the leelas of the two at human level..

If we are to extend the argument that the meaning of this Kavyam is not to be analyzed for this reason you, then there are many parts in Puranas and Itihasas which should be shoved under the carpet for treatment of carnal relations, perversion, cruelty, and macabre backdrop..

Of course I tried to translate a few Ashtapadis which were mild in their content of the main theme of Sringaram.. I discontinued such translation because Sringara Rasam does not seem to be my cup of tea..

But I think I have read at least thousand pages on the subject and I am not apologetic about enjoying the beauty of Radhaamaadhavam, understanding fully its meaning..

The texts for Kathakali, Pathakam, Kootiyaattam, Mohiniyattam and many arts forms of Kerala, as also many dance forms of Orissa, Bengal, and even the Seven Sister states have draw their themes and inspiration heavily form Gitagovindam

Radha and Madhava are the symbols of Divine Love and human love too,

way ahead of Romeo and Juliet or Salim and Anarkali and so on..

If a lover of Sanskrit believes that he can avoid going deep into this Kavyam, he is losing too much..

He is missing too much..

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Note..

Sir Edwin Arnold, has translated Gita Govindam to English.. the caption is "The indian Song of Songs".. and that is a classic in its own right..